Opponents and organizers AGAINST that Kansas City Downtown Toy Train Streetcar are thinking out loud . . .

"Now that the lawsuit didn't pan out, what about an effort to get a petition on the ballot that could stop the streetcar in its tracks? Outside of the TDD, we are being taxed without voting on this since City Hall is dipping into general revenue and since this is continually touted as a "starter line" with planning for more lines already underway"

Thought . . . Given that the votes for this monstrosity inside the TDD were just a few hundred . . . Would a petition against the Streetcar within the TDD have to reach just a percentage of that tiny voter threshold in order to be considered? These questions and so many more are soon to be answered . . . And then probably ignored by Mayor and City Council.



  1. Where do I sign?

  2. Bring it on.

  3. Why would the council and the mayor follow the direction of a referendum? In other cities, mayors and councilmen that are out of control go to prison. That doesn't happen here.

  4. What a waste of time. The blacks that run KC, are going to do whatever the fuck they please and there ain't one thing you can do about it.

  5. Being anti-streetcar today is like being anti-automobile a hundred years ago, or anti-train 150 years ago. I wonder if some people were anti-horse and buggy 200 years ago.

  6. Anything that might stop this big waste of money is worth a try.

  7. 7:41; you couldn't be more wrong. Being pro-streetcar today is like being anti-technology and anti-taxpayer. All you have to do is read about other cities with streetcars to learn the negative impact they have on public transit and public safety. Everyone, including Portland, has buyers remorse.

    City Hall repealed the ordinance protecting 95% of transportation revenue for KCATA. Vital bus routes will be consolidated so hipsters don't have to drive to P&L.

  8. Yes no doubt everyone in Kansas City is going to drive to Crown Center, park, then jump on a street car to get downtown. And don't forget the tourists. Wow, let's visit Kansas City to ride the street car!

  9. 741 do you even read what you type? what are you taking that makes you so delusional and where can i buy some?

  10. lower case celebrity guy4/3/13, 8:47 AM

    You're an idiot @7:41. Its not so much that Im anti streetcar. Im anti TWO MILE streetcar which is going to be just a fashion accessory for hipsters. We may as well spend 200 mil for a FERRIS WHEEL downtown. WHEEEEEEEE!!!!

  11. Kansas City Home of the Worlds Happiest Fuck Ups and Idiots.

  12. 7:41 is probably one of the contractors hoping to get in on the graft.

  13. 8:47; funny you should mention a Ferris Wheel... remember that Stan Glazer wanted to build one when he was running for mayor? Google it.

    Public transit advocates are open to considering ALL FORMS of transit options, and find cost effective improvements that make the most impact.

    Streetcar advocates don't care about the needs of Kansas City residents; they just want Downtown to be a tax subsidized entertainment hub.

    Please "like" #Kcstreetcarfail on Facebook to stay up to date on the latest streetcar news in Kansas City and other cities struggling with the same issue. We need to get organized if we want to stop Phase II from draining more vital resources that could be put to better use in our neighborhoods.

  14. FYI, here's the legal steps to do this. I suggest reading item 3

    If the district is dissolved after bonds are issued the money still is collected to pay it back.

    On August 26th, 2012 the second election was scheduled to have ballots Due Dec 11th. That's 107 days lead time.

    This means to beat the bond sale happening this spring (Spring ends June 21 in 79 days) the signatures should have been submitted a month ago.

  15. Thanks for the link; if we want to stop the Downtown streetcar, that would be the strategy, but I don't think anyone is organized enough to do that, and I'm not even sure that we could swing enough votes to dissolve the district.

    What would be the best strategy to specify that all operational and building costs MUST come from the TDD? If it involves City Hall passing an ordinance, then that won't work either because they've already voted 13-0 to allow the streetcar to take funds from KCATA, and what they don't steal from the buses, they'll steal from the police, the fire department, or the general fund. It's inevitable. It happens in EVERY CITY that has a streetcar.

    While it's definitely important to limit the damage that the downtown streetcar will inevitably have on this city's budget, I think the easiest and best strategy to fight this is to block future Phase II lines from making this problem widespread.

    I'm pretty sure we have enough opposition to the Independence Avenue extension, but I'm concerned about the UMKC extension. I don't have enough contacts in that area and there are a lot of hipster renters who place public transit as a higher priority than public safety or neighborhood livability.

    Anyway, we're not going to stop ANYTHING if we don't organize. Someone get in contact with the police and firefighters unions and see if they're interested in stopping it, because they'll be some of the first to be negatively impacted by it.

  16. Kansas City is just plain fucked up and has been for many years now.

  17. Wow, so far, you've got like 6 or 7 very "loud" signatories (75% of whom don't live in KC, much less downtown or in the core).

    Go, go Sue Bee! Save our empty streets and surface parking lots! (and make sure Sue Bee gets to keep blocking PUBLIC TAXPAYER SUBSIDIZED streets and sidewalks with her delivery van and to sell filters and promote blight).

  18. Impressive, there's actually people (elBryan) saying it's ok to collect money from taxpayers and get nothing out of it.

    Go re-read his first sentence and then the post above it. Notice again how if the district is dissolved the money is still collected.

    Forcing through a petition to get nothing out of legally required taxes is absolutely the most stupid thing anyone can ever do.

  19. If the money is collected, it will be used for something... hopefully the KCATA.

    And I think you're confused; I said that the best strategy (IMO) is to move past the Downtown Streetcar, and focus on blocking Phase II extensions.

    If there's a possibility to stop the downtown streetcar from taking funding away from KCATA, the general fund, public safety, and other revenue collected from outside the TDD, I would love to know how to do it, but you've completely misrepresented my position which I don't feel I could have been any more clear on.

    I suppose that's to be expected though. Streetcar advocates live in their own heads. Anyone with common sense or concern for public safety wouldn't support such a bad deal for tax payers.

  20. Yes, stop the extensions, for the love of god!!!

    Because after all the fucking crying about how the "toy train" "doesn't go anywhere" except where "hipsters live", or that "i support mass transit, but this isn't transit it's ONLY 2 MILES" the solution is to make sure it only goes for 2 miles where hipsters live.

    Fucking idiots. Stay in your culdesacs.

    1. The comment above was erroneously attributed to anonymous. It should have read: RAVING HIPSTER WHO GOT DUPED BY TOY TRAIN PROPONENTS AND IS NOW TRYING DESPERATELY TO RATIONALIZE

  21. Seems to me that non resident people who pay the 1 pct income tax to the city should be able to vote as well. And they'd resoundingly vote no.

    This is utterly a stupid ram through to benefit downtown investors. Most of whom are probably non resident Kansans as well!

  22. Did anyone happen to notice that the mayor of NKC, who championed streetcars there, was soundly defeated yesterday? Looks like the voters of NKC wised up before a streetcar was rammed down their throats.

  23. Both Matt Staub and Councilman Russ Johnson have criticized me for that; y'know, that first I complain that the streetcar doesn't go anywhere, and then that I want to block any extensions. So take your pick as to which one of the two 1:53 is.

    They continue to miss the point that the basis of our argument is that if the rail is going to cost $102M for two miles, *we don't want it to go anywhere*.

    I'm willing to bet that $102M could buy at least five BRT lines that run from UMKC, to downtown KC, to North Kansas City and beyond. It would move FASTER than a streetcar, they could change routes depending on conventions, population shifts, and other events, and so long as the entire city is given a chance to vote, I'd be satisfied with EITHER result.

    3:04; YES! I did see that. GREAT NEWS.

  24. LOL at the anti-democratic douchebag who thinks nono-resident property owner should get to vote.

    Fucking corporate shill.
    People vote, not property. If I own a boat at the Lake and pay taxes on it, that doesn't mean I get to vote for OSage Beach city council.

    What a fucking retard.

  25. The problem with BRT is, KC has shown tey won't do it. Too many traffic engineers and whiney non-residents who bitch bitch about "no parking" myths.

    See our BRT:

    No dedicated lanes, no signal priority, no off-board ticketing, no level boarding stations.

    BRT is great when its done right (see Eugene OR) but the way it gets watered down here, its just an ridiculously expensive express bus with no economic benefit.

  26. elBryan.

    Bonds MUST be repaid.

    So if the district is killed the money will go nowhere else.

    And there's no better way to piss off property owners than to waste their money.

    And if some of them think a streetcar is wasteful, wait until they hear the money is going towards nothing. That's a whole lot worse.

  27. 417 gotta issue those bonds first russ

    hows that goin

  28. I guess digging up an entire street for a month doesn't waste property owners' money...?

    The most expensive BRT is still less than the cheapest streetcar, and anyone discrediting it isn't concerned about public transit; they just want to see a streetcar built at any cost.

    I've made it clear that my goal isn't to stop the downtown streetcar; City Hall and 351 hipsters already screwed us on that. I just don't want to see it expanded outside of downtown. I want Kansas City voters to be told the truth about streetcar before Phase II, and not a bunch of over-hyped sales pitches. I also want all of Kansas City to vote on it. Creating a TDD to approve a project that will take resources from the entire city is dishonest.

  29. They dig up streets all the time, man. What the fuck are you talking about? Its a normal fucking process in any city in the country. No one is reinventing the wheel here, or even doing anything unheard of. There are streets road and highways closed for all kinds of construction every fucking day in the town...and every other.

    If Sue thinks streets never get torn up in NKC or PArkville or wherever, let her move there, or better yet, move to JoCo, pay higher taxes and rest assured no money will ever be spent on anything but subsidizing private automobile usage in perpetuity.

  30. I was watching a news clip from a business owner in Tucson who had been excited about the streetcar running right in front of his business, but he saw his business drop off for like six months once construction started. Even if the businesses in the River Market don't face anything that dramatic, it's just ridiculous that they're even having to deal with it at all.

    Buses, people. They work. Remember the Downtowner?

  31. @6:21 Yo, kevin carlyle aka flyingember, your treehugger, car hating whine is getting old. Just becuz you hate cars doesn't mean everyone does.

    Sales taxes in joCo are now less than downtown KC 8.85% vs 9.35%, 10.35% for tourism district, and 11.35% for P&L

  32. @6:21 Noone pays taxes in Brownbackistan

  33. Oak Park Mall and "Thee Shoppees at Deere Creeke Woodes" both have extra sales taxes for TDDs no one got to vote on(that fund huge vacant parking lots).

  34. Those are horrible comparisons.

    TDDs on shopping districts are used to develop private land that previously generated $0.

    TDDs in the city are used to make infrastructure improvements that The City should already be paying for.

    TDDs on shopping districts are in place BEFORE the stores move in.

    TDDs in the city are placed on established businesses.

    TDDs on privately developed shopping districts generally generate the revenue they project (because investors wouldn't plan them if they didn't.)

    TDDs for public transit always falls short of projections (because The Government can always take money from the general fund to make up the difference.)

    I understand that there's like three or four people that read this blog who really want a rail system at any cost, and you've got the advantage because City Hall wants that too, but the citizens of this town aren't going to sit back and let you spend our money on your own pet projects without letting it be known that your tactics are deplorable and your ideas all suck.

  35. I've decided this site has a problem with, what's the phrase, oh yes, being civil. When a site isn't civil it has lost the respect of anyone who might take it seriously as a political item. At this point this blog is a joke with anyone with political power for or against something.

    Personal attacks are the sign of someone not confident in their position.

    Calling out a specific person with personal attacks is the sign of someone who knows they have no facts to stand on.

    Let me repeat that. Personal attacks means you know you're wrong. It's that simple. You have nothing else to write so you go straight to a junk post.

    If you dislike the train, and that's your choice, find majority examples where it fails and use them in the political process. There was no organized opposition against the streetcar at all. The vote was so small that any sort of opposition could have done well. But no one cared enough.

    Remember, as a political item there's republican leaders and democrat leaders looking at the same system of transit in multiple parts of the country. They're looking into at grade train systems running with traffic. It's rare to find something that's a failure that has bi-partisan support.


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