TKC EXCLUSIVE QUESTION!!! IS THE BNIM TIF BUST OUT BAD FOR KANSAS CITY BIZ OR VICTORY FOR LOCAL DEMOCRACY?!?!
Like it or not, Kansas City voters killed the grand plans for the new BNIM HQ over concern about tax subsidy for millionaires in the thriving Crossroads neighborhood.
In the aftermath, the Mayor, corporate leaders and the newspaper have been pouting about the defeat and threatening that this bit of civic protest will push more business to Kansas and reignite the so-called economic "Border War" that the Sunflower State has been winning for the past 5 years.
Meanwhile . . .
We see Kansas City petitioners stepping up to score major victories in this Crossroads TIF debate, in the fight against the Downtown Convention Hotel and the demand for a public vote amid talk of a new single-terminal airport.
This seems like part of The Kansas City Taxpayer Rebellion we've been talking about since marketing wizards and the d-bag contingent of the Greater Kansas City Chamber of Commerce devised the silly "Translational Research" tax that went down in flames . . .
A recent statement from petitioners offers a quote that speaks to local taxpayer concern over Kansas City corporate handouts . . .
"In the process of circulating the referendum petition and gathering nearly 5,000 signatures, we encountered many people who expressed frustration with: the misuse and abuse of tax incentives; the detrimental impact on taxing jurisdictions (especially the school district and library system); finding blight in vibrant areas such as the Plaza and Crossroads; and reconciling the need for the e-tax with the diversion of substantial tax revenues to developers. Some even asked if the City was relying on the e-tax to make up what they are giving away. There is no victory for us or the signatories unless and until the City substantively addresses these concerns."
So, now we put it to you (natch) . . .
IS THE BNIN HQ TIF DEFEAT A WIN FOR KANSAS CITY VOTERS OR BUST FOR LOCAL BIZ?!?!
There are plenty of arguments on both sides but for now the Border War threat isn't so scary if all that's keeping companies in KC is budget busting breaks . . . Meanwhile, make no mistake that this petition take down now has Question 1 supporters just a bit more concerned about the voter climate toward taxes.
You decide . . .
Here's what you're missing TKC: This was really about the schools. Why must business take money away from the schools without a vote from the people?
ReplyDeletewhy should every issue facing kc be settled in a court room?
ReplyDeleteThe loss means fewer jobs for KC. Plain and simple.
ReplyDeleteIf we had strong leaders would not need taxpayer intervention. Poor stewardship of taxpayers funds necessitates voters get involved. We elected several new council members hoping they would be better stewards. So far the majority are silent puppets, rubber stamping city hall's agenda. It's time for change and defeating the earnings tax will force that change on city hall!
ReplyDeleteKCPS spends more per student than Johnson County. Money isn't the problem. Plus they aren't taking money away from the schools. These properties don't pay taxes anyway, but the employees pay earning taxes and spend money in city.
ReplyDeleteThe mayor and the greedy "make Downtown cool for white people," crowd will say this is awful for business because this has disrupted their winning formula of using tax incentives indiscriminately, but the day after this decision, most of what I'm reading admits that the TIF process was being abused and needs to be reformed. Hopefully BNIM will stay in KCMO, but either way, it is a victory.
ReplyDeleteSo now KC can use this money to pay for vital services and skip the E Tax right? Your property taxes wont go up right? You wish! Not as long as city hall has the drunken sailor syndrome going on.
ReplyDeleteVote NO on E Tax
I could of got the deal done for them had they continued to make the payoffs to me that we have agreed to over the years. Now was the wrong time to be cheap.
ReplyDeleteLike it or not, Kansas City voters killed the grand plans for the new BNIM HQ over concern about tax subsidy for millionaires in the thriving Crossroads neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteIn the aftermath, the Mayor, corporate leaders and the newspaper have been pouting about the defeat and threatening that this bit of civic protest will push more business to Kansas and reignite the so-called economic "Border War" that the Sunflower State has been winning for the past 5 years.
Meanwhile . . .
We see Kansas City petitioners stepping up to score major victories in this Crossroads TIF debate, in the fight against the Downtown Convention Hotel and the demand for a public vote amid talk of a new single-terminal airport.
This seems like part of The Kansas City Taxpayer Rebellion we've been talking about since marketing wizards and the d-bag contingent of the Greater Kansas City Chamber of Commerce devised the silly "Translational Research" tax that went down in flames . . .
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The above commentary has been awarded a GOLD MEDAL in the category of PUBLIC WATCHDOG GUARDIAN by a citizen journalist.
The award was granted by acclamation, with all committee members in strong enthusiastic support for this writer.
BNIM is not going to move its HQ to Kansas. We all know that. Every major architect firm wants their letterhead to say KCMO. So the Star and the Chamber are raising a false flag.
ReplyDeleteThis was a defeat of a Mission Hills millionairess, Shirley Helzberg, a novice developer with a Leona Helmsley complex. She has an enormous sense of entitlement. She thought paying Jerry Riffel $500 an hour, to use the good name of Lathrop and Gage, could drag this dog across the line.
You may recall that Shirley also was part of the noblesse oblige campaign for BiState II, where she expected the metro's taxpayers to make her the big heroine for the symphony, the ballet and the opera. BiState II went down to defeat, 54 to 46%. Despite Pat Gray and that sociopath Jeff Roe milking $3 million out of the Hunt and Glass and Cerner/Patterson/Illig families.
Jeff Roe is now tanking Ted Cruz's campaign, thanks to his disastrous phoners and mailers and caucus speeches, lying to Iowans that Ben Carson was out of the race, in order to convert Carson's supporters to Cruz.
In KC, we are seeing a taxpayer revolt. Things need to be cleaned up. The E-tax may go down, that will get their attention at City Hall.
But not to worry. BNIM is not moving to Brownbackistan. They have long had a Plan B, an alternative new HQ in KCMO. In an even better looking building, not Shirley's Crossroads Pig in a Blanket. They'll roll it out right after the Super Bowl. Go Peyton and the Broncos!
Don't you have your own joco blog? Go troll around there. You're not welcome in Kcmo matters.
DeleteJocopost lady is like most every other suburban woman. Homely looking, sexually unsatisfied, uninformed and angry about most everything. Stick to yelling at your neighbors for having bad edging on their lawn.
ReplyDeleteHey, coward at 10:56. I'm no lady!!!
ReplyDeleteSee, we agree on one thing.
However, this is just an ad hominem attack. (That means personal, might want to google it in case you were a C student.) The point of this blog, and mine, including kcmopost.com, is to address the issues. Not attack the other commenters.
Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion of BNIM and tax abatements? One fact? One opinion? Do you know anything?
Grow a set of balls and use your name. Photo optional. Nobody cares how you look. What are your ideas. Use your name --unless you work for the city, and are logging in on work time, like so many City Hall staffers do. I could see how that might be problematic. Half of Tony's readers might be the bureaucrats, chamber blokes and lawyers.
As for my Oct. 20 post on kcmopost.com about Krista Turner, perhaps you should reread it. Not about edging, it's about following the law. And not bullying residents. I stand up for justice.
Tracy Thomas, publisher of kcmopost.com and jocopost.com. Doubleday author. Former elected official for five years...
Last Friday, following a short mention of 'Our Divided City' TV4 makes the lamest excuse for why blighted properties aren't being demolished east of Troost. They had Abby Eden quipping from the teleprompter --absent owners of these blighted and abandoned houses are difficult to locate. Yeah, right.
ReplyDeleteChief Forte, please follow through and begin getting those hellholes dozed off the face of the earth. If owners can't come forward, haven't maintained up to code and especially shirk tax obligations, those slumlords gave up the ownership! Also clear out the Land Bank hellholes en masse--THAT owner is the city of KC--the World Series champs. Very few of those tumbledowns look to have any rehab value, and the majority of those dumps continue rotting and enticing crime.
Mayor James and city leaders, if you care about the good Carter families and the Mr. Hills of KC's east of Troost, take fast action on cleanup, blight removal and crime prevention/detection. The claim of world class city rings hollow until reality matches rhetoric.
Demolition is not the answer. Turning neighborhoods into dessert lands doesnt add value any more than the vacant structures. It just promotes more abandonment. Worry about how to fix your side of Troost. We will figure out a place to keep Whites from huying property and raping the neighborhoods in the meanwhile.
Delete9:06 AM Don't bite off your nose to spite your face. The E-tax is an issue all by itself. It benefits Kansas City and we must vote YES and understand why!
ReplyDeleteVoting no wannabe philosophical asshole.
DeleteA lot of those houses that have been abandoned were bought with uncollateralized loans from mortgage bankers who lent to overextended buyers. When these people lose their jobs that have moved to foreign countries or they have to flee back to Mexico, the houses are abandoned and the houses that were overpriced in the lending bubble have become economically unviable. In my neighborhood of older homes, the asking prices dropped from $110000 to $300000 to $40000 for houses that were in livable shape. The abandoned houses after being allowed to deteriorate were selling for $10000! I know for a fact that the bank holding the mortgage on one abandoned house refused to foreclose, leaving the house title in the former owner's name, therefore the bank was not responsible for codes violations from the city! Now who is really responsible for the decline of the City?
ReplyDelete11:29, while very thoughtful and engaging, this post sounds great, initially, except for it being illegal. You remind me a bit of Bernie Sanders, calling for revolution. By the force of one man's opinion.
ReplyDeleteI am not a real estate attorney, but know some, and those ghost titles are costly to track down. Also, it is certainly not the responsibility or authority of the Chief of Police, Darrell Forte, to condemn property. The Land Bank, or Land Trust, yes, it's bad. But if condemnation were easy, then developers like Donald Trump would just bulldoze and rebuild and gentrify.
Meanwhile, folks like former mayor Emanuel Cleaver, testify that what we need to do is pour another $20 million into the failed Jazz Museum District. On top of the first $22 million giveaway thanks to the lobbying of Carol Coe, when she was on the Council. And what the recent Pitch story estimates as north of $114 million total in subsidies. It's not going to fix things. It's a set aside.
Kansas City MO is one of the worst cities for managing its real estate and infrastructure. The E-tax was initially a set aside to cover free trash pickup! Sometimes pulling the plug on something is enough of a wakeup call, for total reinvention. We shall see.
The Helzberg/BNIM failure was one such wakeup call.
Tracy Thomas, publisher of Jocopost.com and kcmopost.com
Former director of the Mayor's Council on the Arts, for Charley Wheeler
Its both bad for business and good for democracy. It's up to elected officials to find the balance and because they did not here...the project is a failure but win for democracy.
ReplyDeleteThe good news is: Shirley Helzberg of Mission Hills, Kansas is wildly rich. She can still go ahead and develop her project. For BNIM, or someone else. Just without cheating the KCPS out of $5 million. She never really "needed" that subsidy, she just wanted it. She was very late to the game, wanted what the early pioneer developers received. That land is no longer "blighted", it's ultra-prime property. Did not fit the moral guidelines for blight and abatement.
ReplyDeleteIt is widely believed that Lathrop and Gage hated taking this on as a client, but she paid Jerry Riffel $500 an hour or more, and could not get it done.
As 11:26 said, a win for democracy.
My god you're still talking?
DeleteJust remember people, the ability to get into a TIF is critical because when the e-tax fails, it will turn into a property tax that they will not have to pay. Got to cover yourself!!
ReplyDeleteCodes (Neighborhood Preservation) can declare a building dangerous and have it demolished. I've been involved in getting two dangerous buildings removed.
ReplyDeleteFor 150 years KCMO and all the major cities in the United States were built without subsidies. To hear the developers talk you would think its impossible to build now without a subsidy. If that be the case then either taxes are too high or their is not enough demand. Either way giving tax subsidies is not the answer.
ReplyDelete1:20 certainly has the right idea.
ReplyDeleteHere's another one:
What if the elected officials in KCMO city government focus on municipal responsibilities like public safety and streets, and the folks in a school district spend their time educating kids, and development and other business projects are left to the private sector, where there is actual expertise and funding, if the project makes financial sense.
It wouldn't work at present in KCMO because there aren't any elected officials who have an even passing understanding or even any interest in public policy and municipal governance, but in a town of 464,000 residents, you can always hope.
Well, JoCo Post, let's get the damn 'ghostbusters' and find those owners! It's double-speak and bank shenanigans that the b.s. legalese favors slumlords. Crime and blight together is dragging down the value and losing tax revenues, and consumer spending losses while remaining vacant. All these beat up houses, and that's a generous description, aren't a stamp collection or old dated yellow gold jewelry that are to be sat on while waiting for the prime time markets. Chief Forte and plenty others are dead on--the shitshow is an embarrassment but is more a social justice debacle. Too many decent folks of modest income endure danger and filthy dumping from squatters, druggies and other crimes. Notice in Strawberry Hill the vacant, delapidated junk joints are gone. Lawyers driving to their offices to KCK and the courts no longer have to look at or fear crime ridden slums. Citizens and especially legal professionals and city administration driving from Leawood, Lake Quivira, west Dotte and beyond got some cleanup underway and bought some of the worthy houses and renovated.
ReplyDeleteMurguia and her district have stabilized KCK's Argentine with ongoing retail and residential growth. There are decent codes enforcements and economic growth is widening there.
Taking money away from KCPS's is not reality. The district gets most of its money from Property Taxes. The building would go from having an accessed value of less than 1 million to 15 million. Over time this would have been a very good financial opportunity form KCPS's and the City.
ReplyDeleteToo bad...
well sounds like many a nigger will be moving to Shangri-la then
ReplyDeleteThere goes Tracy's handjob business
Animal 2:54
ReplyDeleteThis was an intelligent thread, so you just couldn't stand it, could you?
Tracy is a great addition to this bloggy community.
Do us all a favor, & let the adults continue our discussion.
2:43 Build a new building, an old one goes vacant unless there is increased demand. It might be several rungs down the ladder but there will be vacancies. I can show you a building assessed for $516,000 in 2014 and $130,000 in 2015 because it sat vacant. So building a new tax abated building will result in lowered tax collections on existing buildings, not to mention the blight a vacant building creates.
ReplyDelete3:09 so a new constructionor is gains insurance proceeds, utilities, purchases of fixtures, furnishings, and ongoing maintenance AFTER the design/build fees, taxes and wages add in. GREAT. TIF'd though tosses in the ROI risks to taxpayers and the usual opportunity cost to some other cause.
ReplyDeleteNo, vacancy doesn't have to mean, SHOULDN'T mean blight. There are codes to be applied for appearance and function in empty, occupied and under construction properties. Legally and morally, we'd expect the WEALTHY owners to comply, you know, protect their assets and all. So, that vacant building will still bring tax and utilities (keeping frozen pipes at bay and lights/alarms/sprinlers) plus insurance coverage.
STFU Shithouser you add nothing to anything stay out of our business.
ReplyDelete4:00 obviously a product of the KC school district or started happy hour early.
ReplyDeleteI thought 4:00 might be Jerry Riffel! (Shirley's attorney) until he talked about morals...
ReplyDeleteTIF 101:
ReplyDeleteNo TIF project EVER "costs" the school district any revenue it is already receiving. Hence the term Tax INCREMENT Financing. Only the INCREASE of some taxes ABOVE the current amount (the "Increment" in TIF. Only IF the project would be built anyway would it matter (the "but for" test.)
The loss of this project is a tragedy for the City -- and is a LOSS to the KCMOSD because they would have also gotten a LOT of extra money through Payments in Lieu of Taxes. But, I guess a million or so is a small price to pay for grandstanding politicos -- including the new schoolboard member who led the fight to prevent the project.
Corporate citizens in Kansas City are the worst. The fact is that the Crossroads is not blighted. That is just another lie that corporate lawyers, politicians and developers want to propagate.
ReplyDeleteMr Cardarella,
ReplyDeleteOne can never know how much a TIF costs because the effects are not just limited to the project in question. One development can and does effect property values all over the city. Even the unbiased experts are only guessing when they try to assess outcomes. What makes you think the corrupt and the idiots that run our city can do better?
I propose we have a referendum on the 18th and Vine $20,000,000 expenditure. If the School Board can effectively delay/stop a wonderful investment that BNIN project called for then the 18th and Vine project should voted on. It is amazing that the School District has the power to delay and therefore stop a worthy cause like BNIN. The school district should be under the control of the state. Failure....
ReplyDeleteA hearty shout out to JoCo Post writer Tracy Thomas....you go girl!!!!!
ReplyDeleteWe don't know each other, and I've dished some crap your way in the past, as we disagree on plenty, but you have some very good comments posted above.
So, I thank you for the insightful comments, and hope to see you here routinely. Cheers!
Properties that receive tax abatements are NEVER ASSESSED AT FULL NEW VALUE. At the end of the abatement period the value of the property has declined because it has been used up. A commercial property is considered completely worn out after forty years. The mechanical systems have been repaired many times and need to be completely replaced. The structure often is considered no longer meeting current standards and design expectations.
ReplyDeleteThe real kicker is that the businesses who receive the benefits of a 20 year or 25 year tax abated building usually are READY TO MOVE TO A NEW LOCATION AFTER TEN YEARS, have been sold or gone out of business. SELDOM ARE PENALTIES WRITTEN INTO AGREEMENTS concerning tax abatements.
Then after ten years the developers come back to the city for ADDITIONAL TAX ABATEMENTS. The property is considered again VACANT AND BLIGHTED.
LOOK AT THE KC STAR THAT RENEGOTIATED A NEW TAX ABATEMENT AGREEMENT on structures less than ten years old.
I will trade 100 Byrons and his name calling for one Tracy ! Any takers?
ReplyDeleteYes Tracy can stay, Byron has to go.
ReplyDeletethanks, boys. I feel like Darla, from Our Gang comedies. I've finally been invited into the fort.
ReplyDeleteTracy
7:13 Good work schooling 5:04, Phil, et.al.
ReplyDeleteLegends is another TIF trick Dottes were duped with.
Still you simpletons think it is all about YOUR EGOS and not ABOUT THE ISSUES and IDEAS AT HAND. Pathetic!
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how many people will angrily step up to speak about issues they have not fully understood or educated themselves about. Most of the people speaking on both sides are not using facts for their perspective just yelling louder to compensate.
ReplyDelete