Wednesday, August 09, 2017

SHOCK!!! KANSAS CITY VOTER STREETCAR PUSH BACK DEBUNKS TOY TRAIN HYPE!!!



In an open and citywide election . . . Kansas City voters OVERWHELMINGLY REJECTED streetcar expansion without checks and balances.

TKC fun fact . . .

NEARLY 5 TIMES THE NUMBER OF KANSAS CITY VOTERS DEMAND CITYWIDE APPROVAL FOR STREETCAR EXPANSION THAN VOTED IN THE RECENT AND RIGGED TDD TOY TRAIN VOTE!!!

Do the math:

3506 voters in the rigged TDD vote . . . Compared to 17,344 Question 1 yes votes.

Here's a TKC comment that really sums up the situation:

The streetcar proponents are hanging on a hope that courts will rule Question 1 "Unconstitutional" and even Sly James himself is claiming that.

It will most certainly be challenged in court and I'm not convinced that the $1000 a day fine will stand muster (I'm not even entirely sure how the city fines itself and who they would pay the fines to with our tax dollars)

But certainly a citizen led petition that demanded a layer of accountability and oversight for the current process that allows for multi-step notarized mail in ballots in a gerrymandered district will be upheld in court.

Citywide elections for all future streetcar expansion (until the next mayor and council are elected and they vote to repeal that ordinance)

Anyway, I guess the streetcar folks can ask Trump if they can have some TIGER grant money. Haha

Another great comment:

"When there are fair, city votes, we find the results are 2 - 0 in favor of no streetcar. The streetcar only wins when there is rigged voting. Hopefully this time City Hall will respond to the will of the people and not waste money fighting in court."

Links:

KC Biz Journal: KC voters pump the brakes on streetcar expansion effort

Fox4: Future of streetcar is unclear as voters narrowly pass measure that requires citywide vote before being extended

KC Streetcar: Q1 results are disappointing however the KCSA will continue already approved efforts toward planning a #kcstreetcar extension to UMKC.

Developing . . .

72 Comments:

Anonymous said...

DOn't forget the bright side of all this TKC: City legal should be hiring more lawyer soon given their increased workload.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, 17,000 votes, that's a seventy percent voter turn out in lyin cheating crooked sLIE's fuzzy math world! Lol!

Anonymous said...

The Mayor and Counsel should look at this vote and reevaluate the Street Car package they are supporting. The Taxing District is an extremely unfair part of what they have been selling.
Everywhere you look in the City there are major issues. Streets, Sewer, Crime, Schools and the Street Car is the focus of this governing body. How does this make sense?

Anonymous said...

I doubt that a city-wide vote will override a state statute. It does make it a little bit more difficult for streetcar boosters to lie withoug blushing. But I'm sure they'll manage it.

I See a Loser said...

Only just over 17K in votes against? What a pathetic turnout.

Anonymous said...

The TDD vote should never have take place. The Mayor and backers of this vote should be ashamed of themselves.
The City Counsel has an extremely poor image with the public. I was a life long democrat until I moved to Kansas City. Watching these folks operate a government has been an eye opening experience. I am amazed at how this city functions and am now suspicious of just about everything they roll out.

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

Your comments on the number of voters participating are misleading. The voters that voted on expanding the TDD actually live in the proposed TDD-- it's a smaller subset of the city. It's the people that would actually be taxed on it, and the people that would actually benefit from it. The people that would be in the TDD actually voted to SELF-TAX themselves to pay for a streetcar that they would use daily. The rest of KCMO would not pay anything for this streetcar. Thus, the transportation district was set up so that the people who would pay and benefit would be the ones to decide if they were for or against such an initiative. We voted 70% in favor of TAXING OURSELVES again, to create the extension for the streetcar. The TDD is kind of like a school district. If you live in the district, you vote for tax and bond initiatives that affect you and your family; if you don't live in the school district, you don't vote on that school district's tax initiatives. That's how the transportation district-- the TDD-- works. It's not illegal, that issue had already been decided in court (twice) that creating the TDD is indeed legal. (No need to drool about the City needing to hire more lawyers.)

The Question 1 initiative takes votes from ALL of KCMO, not just in voters in the TDD, so yes, there are many more people that would vote because it is a larger pool of possible voters-- it's the entire city. Your numbers are misleading. But I doubt that you care that you're lying to the public (and yourself) to meet your agenda. Basically, the rest of KCMO now gets to dictate if I, a resident of the TDD, want to pay more taxes for myself, for a benefit that I would receive (and others get to benefit from our streetcar, too.)

Most of KCMO will not ride the streetcar daily, so most of KCMO considers it a "toy train," and perhaps for you, it is a novelty. For those of us that live here in the TDD, in the urban core, we are happy to create a SELF-TAX transportation district, pay our tiny bit of real estate property tax to get a local transportation system that we use to commute. And, the rest of KCMO, those of you who live out in the 'burbs, get to ride it at no cost to you, because we have chosen to pay for it. My taxes were about $1.04/day to pay for the streetcar, and all of KC and our visitors get to benefit from it. I have no problem with paying that. You in the KCMO 'burbs, you pay nothing for it, but you get to ride it for free, and now you get to squash my ability for me to pay for something I would like and use, and would let visitors use for free. If you haven't been downtown lately, you probably don't know that the streetcar is full and well-used DAILY, not just weekends when people come from the outer 'burbs to visit the City Market.

But, your lack of understanding what you're voting on, or perhaps your misleading initiative to fight against the streetcar (for what, I don't know because it is no cost to those outside the TDD), and your votes against it blew it-- your lack of understanding the issues and economics, and lack of long-term vision. This is why we can't have nice things here.

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

Also... The infrastructure, i.e. streets, sewer, water, stormwater drainage, etc.-- those things get repaired as the streetcar line is built. It's part of the taxes we pay as part of living in the transportation district. It's a package deal. So, it's probably going to take more time to get those things fixed now.

As far as crime prevention, that's paid for by a different tax that supports police and first responders. That's your 1% KCMO earnings tax.(As a resident of the urban core, I think your perception of crime issues here is over-imagined.) Schools are paid for by their school district and is separate from the City of KCMO's control, and is definitely taxed differently than the transportation district; it's a whole separate issue. This is how it has been for decades. So saying that the City is misleading the voters on the TDD is untrue. Perhaps you need to understand your own taxes better. Maybe sit down with your tax bills and tax advisor, find out what each of those line items are, how they are created, etc.

Anonymous said...

^^^^ What kind of a fuckin' dream world do you live in, honey?

Anonymous said...

Your $1.04 will sure go a long way in paying for the extension!!! You are bat shit crazy.

Anonymous said...

The route for the toy train should go right up Sly's big fat ass.

Anonymous said...

If a TDD district only taxed residential property then 8:33's rant might contain some element of truth. However the entire city pays sales taxes to businesses stuck inside the district, commercial property owners who have no right to vote pay huge property taxes, and any business located within the district pays more personal property tax.

This is not like some HOA raising dues. The streetcar will have a large negative impact on the entire city and the citizens have a right to stop it.

Anonymous said...

We need new streets and sewers, not streetcars.

Sorry.

Crazy Clown said...

I'll VOTE for sending that TOY TRAIN Route right up SLY's Fat Ass ,, VOTE, Hell Yes on that one !!!

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

The streets and sewers under the streetcar rails are fixed prior to rail installation.
The rest of the city's streets and sewers will be repaired by the sales tax we voted on last election. Remember? That was a separate vote, separate tax.
The fixed rail streetcar brings visitors, business, and residents downtown that help pay for streetcar and other tax revenues are generated by sales tax, hotel tax, etc.. The businesses in the transportation district are generally FOR the transportation district, thus the reason many are moving offices back downtown. Their profits are outpacing their TDD tax bill,for most businesses. Visitors using the streetcar are impressed that it is no ticket cost and are wanting it to go to the Plaza. (And they are amazed that Kansas Citians are fighting it. I ask that of many visitors when I ride the streetcar.) As s resident and business owner in the TDD, that uses the streetcar, my benefit far outweighs the cost, and I'm just an average resident. I am willing to pay for my share. You are not paying for it if you do not live in the TDD. So why are you against it?

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

The City isn't rolling this out. Residents in the proposed tax district are rolling it out. They want it. They are creating-- or trying to create-- a self-taxing transportation district, and then a streetcar, that people outside the district are not taxed for. The CITIZENS of the district are doing this, not the city.

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

Yeah, "Crazy Clown" still takes the same courage as being Anonymous.

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

Streetcar is currently working with a revenue surplus, and with the rate of new residents and businesses and visitors, and expanding the district, the revenue is expected to grow. So yep, that's how it works. And it is working.

Anonymous said...

To all of the above: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Anonymous said...

^^^Reasons to oppose it? It's wasteful. It will cost the city money. It's being rammed down our throats against our will. It relies on vote suppression and institutional racism. Need more reasons? I got 'em.

Bryan M. Stalder, Esq. said...

Future streetcar expansion will still use TDD to collect revenue from the parcels along the route, but Question 1 ensures that everyone in the city, not those hand selected by real estate lawyers, will have the opportunity to approve the TDD formation. This is superior to the multistep notarized mail in ballot process that confused so many *including* many streetcar proponents.

This doesn't stop streetcar, it simply stops corruption. If we have a citywide discussion about this, I'm sure that folks within the TDD can convince folks in the Northland that a streetcar to Plaza and UMKC would add value to the city, and the Northland wouldn't have to pay for it. But it's pretty fucked up when you think about how smug folks have to be to assume that residents in the Northland or East Side shouldn't have a say in whether or not the city commits resources to a $250,000 train that most folks will never ride.

DramavilleKC said...

And this nonsense is why I do not live in Detroit South oops I mean KCMO.

With a skyrocketing violent crime rate, insane water bills, streets you can barely go down due to the ever present metal coverings and a school district that doesn't have accreditation...

We need a new airport! A new convention hotel! Plus more streetcar! Priorities!

Anonymous said...

When people chose to live or own property in a city they understand that they are at the mercy of the entire city when it comes to taxation. But property owners in a TDD have it forced on them after the fact in a gerrymandered way. If the property owners are truly benefiting let property owners vote in proportion to the taxes they will pay.

Anonymous said...

Don't bother talking reasonably, making sense, presenting verified facts, etc. That doesn't fly here. But if you want to go off on black people, feel free.

Anonymous said...

10:43, the comment is still there. But keep trying, it's a worthy goal.

Anonymous said...

Sly will have it exactly as he wishes. Just look at the vote turn out. It is clear most of the lethargic dregs of Kansas City voted on the "I don't give a shit", ticket and that is exactly why Kansas Shitty is.

Anonymous said...

Hey Tony you hear KMBZ they're making fun of you. I'd call in.

Anonymous said...

Poor Shannon, you just screwed your future self with that vote, when you leave in a couple years from that posh brookside area, and you will, you'll have a harder time selling your house because of the taxes, but be proud of yourself for screwing everyone else's future in that neighborhood. You people don't stay in that area very long!

Anonymous said...

I think Shannon is sLIE trying to convince people he's not paying attention to tkc!

Anonymous said...

Or a realtor.....

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

I don't live in Brookside. I live in "South Detroit " according to one commentator. I live right in the heart of it. Downtown KC is my home. It's safe. It's walkable. It's neighborly. My property value has jumped up significantly due to the proximity of the streetcar. I'm actually living and benefiting from my TDD tax dollars. Others living in the Midtown area were hoping to have the same. I could sell my home in a matter of days for at least full market price if I wanted to, right now. Poor me. I love it here, and am planning to be here till I leave this earth.Not frightened of or in my neighborhood. I've been tracking on this streetcar process for a long time, I've not seen this corruption you speak of. Citizens in the area are trying to create a benefit for themselves, and pay for it themselves. We can't convince suburban KCMO people that it's beneficial because your life experience and desire for what you want in a home and neighborhood is different from ours. You're too scared to even be here, it appears. We love it here. That's a totally foreign concept for you, based on the comments here. That's okay. But let us do something to benefit ourselves. I don't know how to make it any clearer that if you're not in the TDD, you are not paying for it.

Anonymous said...

The problem as I see it - with the TDD that recently passed - is that a lot of people got to vote but aren't going to be taxed. Of course I might vote yes for something if I don't have to pay for it and/or might get some benefit from it. I would be interested to see how many of the actual yes votes were from voters who either pay no property taxes or don't actually live in the taxable area; and the reverse - how many actual voters who will be taxed and/or pay property taxes voted yes. I think your "overwhelming support" inside the TDD is overstated.

Anonymous said...

Shannan you are a realtor. We do not trust you.

You have every reason to lie.

Beyond that, there are plenty of poor people in the TDD. Can they afford what you can so easily afford? A dollar a day is a lot to a single mom on WIC. There are people in the city who are not BoHo you know.

Anonymous said...

Shannon-the CID voters did not vote to "self-tax." They voted for their landlords' taxes to be raised. Watch the exodus when the landlords try to pass the tax on to them. Also, everyone who shops in the CID (think Costco, Home Depot, Office Depot, etc.) will be paying the new sales tax, and EVERYONE who drives on Main will suffer the pain of the lost lane.

There is a good reason the entire city should have a say in future streetcar expansion.

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

Yep, I have a job. And I live and work downtown. I walk my walk. I pay my way.
CID and TDD are two different entities, two different self-taxing authorities, different pools of money, created by the people who live and do business in them.

Anonymous said...

Toot toot. City-wide vote. Clunk by 70-30.

Anonymous said...

Shannan-ever heard of the MAX?

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

Costco, Home Depot, Office Depot in midtown are in the Main Street CID, Downtown CID is a separate entity. The TDD- the transportation district- is a completely separate entity again, created and funded specifically for one thing- transportation, in the very specific district. The TDD lines are relatively straightforward, not gerrymandered. (You need to get better with your Googlebox on your interwebs.)

Anonymous said...

The Trolley is yet another downtown development project far more in need of transparency and accountability than more cheerleading. 18th and Vine is a mess, the P&L loses 15 million a year, and the Streetcar? Well, the jury's out. What we've seen is spin and rah-rah. It's not really transit; it's an amusement park ride that doesn't even charge admission.

It's way past time we paid attention to the bread and butter issues affecting all residents, not rushing off to the latest spending spree. Psst--some leadership on crime is WAY past due.

Why all of this dialogue today, when the Streetcar's record is one of questionable figures, hidden elections, and diktat?

Because you tend to lose free and fair elections. Sorry.

Anonymous said...

1:25: So you're saying sales taxes will not go up at Costco, Home Depot, and Office Max because of the toot toot?

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

A mom on WIC would not pay a dollar a day for a streetcar real estate property tax, her property taxes would be different than me and my "BoHo" self and my property. But you know that already. And yes, the MAX is great, too. Have you ever ridden it?

Do you find it empowering to hide behind "Anonymous" and call people names? Just curious.

Anonymous said...

^^^^I don't think I called you any names (although I do think you're disingenuous). Yes I have ridden the MAX. I live within walking distance of both existing MAX lines. It's much more sensible for me to use it to go downtown than it is to drive and find a place to park.

And the sales taxes at Costco, Home Depot, Office Max, etc. will be going up 1% as a result of the TDD vote, which is a question you've not yet answered.

Anonymous said...

Again, if something is proposed for Kansas City, then all of Kansas City should be able to vote on it. The only people who don't want a public vote are the ones who see the trend in voting. The streetcar is a joke- it's a glorified bus.

Anonymous said...

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...
Yep, I have a job. And I live and work downtown.


How come your name(s) do not show up in any Jackson County public records if you live and work downtown?

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

No, you were implying (or appeared to be confused? Or misleading your followers?) that the CID is the same as the TDD. They are not.

There is a sales tax component of the TDD, and those of us who again live and shop here at the Midtown Costco, Office Max, and such are well aware that we would be paying that as well. We are voting to self-tax, so we can have another nice transportation option. Do you shop at these stores? If not, than it would not your problem. If so, you can easily patronize a different Costco or Office Depot, right? And not pay the sales tax? Maybe go shop Costco North of the river, or in Kansas? Jackson County voters voted FOR the streetcar, Clay & Platte did not. Jackson County voters are seeing the benefit, and would like to have it. Platte & Clay voters don't use it daily, it's not a part of their lives, so it is a novelty-- a toy train. It's not a toy for us. Seriously, Jackson county residents are fine if you're not comfortable being down here in our home which was disparagingly referred to "South Detroit" . But if we want something nice that we're willing to pay for, we'd like to move forward with it.

Also, a WIC mom could probably afford a dollar a day for the streetcar (less , in reality) for transportation to and from work vs. the cost of a car, upkeep, insurance, fuel. That's less than a car payment. The MAX costs more, but I'm sure you know that already, since you asked if I'd heard of it. But so glad you care for the working WIC moms! We Jackson County BoHo and WIC moms, retirees to Millennials, we ride the streetcar for work and daily life. If you want to ride a toy train, there's one at Line Creek Park, Worlds of Fun, and the Zoo. Those are very different from the streetcar.

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

There WAS a public vote. Again you are misleading people. If you don't live in the TDD, then you are not part of that district, you don't pay the taxes, you don't benefit directly. Just as a person in the Shawnee Mission School district does not vote in a KCMO school district vote, because it's not your district, your property taxes are different, your benefit is different, but It's still a public vote. People also vote for only the representatives in their district, not outside their district, and it's still a public vote. The TDD vote was public. Information was all over the place about it.

Shannan (Pew) Berkbuegler said...

What exodus?? They are building apartments all over the place near the streetcar. They're leased before they can finish them. Do you even get downtown? Or are you just making this up as you go?

Anonymous said...

^^^^^So in order to avoid paying the sales tax (which, as you know is about the most regressive kind of tax there is), you're telling us to go to Kansas or north of the river? How very nice of you.

As far as I know I don't have any "followers." And you and the streetcar crowd have yet to explain why it's a good idea to duplicate a service that already exists--the MAX, which costs $1.50 to ride unless you qualify for a discounted fare, which can be as low as 75 cents. Whenever this question comes up we hear... crickets.

BTW, if you're gainfully employed, what are you doing spending so much time on the Internet (8:33 until now)? Unless, of course, your job involves promoting the toot toot.

Anonymous said...

Oh, never mind. I see you're a Realtor. That explains a lot.

Anonymous said...

^^^Says the washed up geezer who has nothing better to do do than argue all day on a third-rate blog.

Anonymous said...

" They are building apartments all over the place near the streetcar. They're leased before they can finish them."

Yep. Tax abated apartments. And when the abatements expire... ?

Anonymous said...

2:44: You should be so washed up!

Anonymous said...

The TDD is a joke. Only way anything passes on the streetcar is when it's not an accurate representation of the KC populous. If it's such a good idea, put it up for a vote and then respect the outcome. Don't just let a certain area vote when it actually does affect the entire city. If it was such a good idea then the entire city would
be behind it- but that is not the case.

Anonymous said...

Streetcar vote in canned election: WIN!

Streetcar vote in open election: LOSE!

No wonder the supporters have their panties in a wad today.

I don't think that some people understand how tight money is with the poor. A dollar a day, to use this random figure, means something. Single mom can't get to the northland to shop--no trolley, ya see.

The new apartments are not for lease to the poor however, nor are the new shops for the poor, so I don't think the shiny new trolley is for the poor either. Ad if I were a realtor moving properties I sure as hell would want property prices in the TDD to go up. So as a matter of self interest it is understandable.

And the trolley is cool! Sure is. But what is cooler is fewer dead people on the sidewalks, and fewer break-ins. Some of these even happen where the BoHo live, so ya'll might want to think that over.

. . . and it is telling that people are being encouraged to shop elsewhere, and by extension live elsewhere if they don't like it -- "Get out!" -- because that is gentrification 101.

Anonymous said...

" I walk my walk. I pay my way." Make sure you leave a dollar on the seat of the TOOT TOOT. You want this streetcar because you do not want to pay your own way. If you really wanted to pay your own way you would take the Max. You want the TDD residents to pay for you to get to work. I am a resident of this TDD and one of my medications costs me $1.50 per day. I will have to find another money source to help pay for your ride.

Anonymous said...

Let's face it. White elitists won't ride a Max bus or any bus. They just want a streetcar for themselves. If working class people rode a streetcar like they do buses, the white elitists would start screaming for private shuttles.

Anonymous said...

Im white.

I dont want streetcars.

I want safe neighborhoods and infrastructure everywhere. Not just a select sliver of area benefiting a few.

Anonymous said...

"And you and the streetcar crowd have yet to explain why it's a good idea to duplicate a service that already exists--the MAX, which costs $1.50 to ride unless you qualify for a discounted fare, which can be as low as 75 cents. Whenever this question comes up we hear... crickets."

Yep. Still crickets.

Anonymous said...

Like the crickets from when Tony Botello LOST his libel lawsuit to a douchebag lawyer of all people

Anonymous said...

^Says the unwashed, nasty skeeze who has nothing of his own, except an unpaid student loan.

Anonymous said...

"And you and the streetcar crowd have yet to explain why it's a good idea to duplicate a service that already exists--the MAX, which costs $1.50 to ride unless you qualify for a discounted fare, which can be as low as 75 cents. Whenever this question comes up we hear... crickets."

Yep. Still crickets, trolley boy. Ad hominem attacks are much easier than addressing facts aren't they?

Anonymous said...

4:43/6:42, Uh,so, KC's late paying taxes MAYOR and his DUIs/failure to appear/Fran's Diner "dasher" SON are PERFECTLY FLAWLESS in judgments, huh? And, no ANGELIC fireguy ever got popped for sleeping off a buzz in the middle of the highway WHILE HIS VERY YOUNG CHILDREN WERE IN THE VEHICLE WITH HIM.

Yeah, keep reaching back for ancient history. There's more than enough of DUMB, DUMBER and DAMN DUMBEST to replay for ya.

Same old crap said...

In response to 8:30, they are not successful. That's whats ducking up these cities.

agentzero said...

It will be interesting to see the new composition of the Streetcar board, pissed public and a probable losing hand won't be a joy to deal with

agentzero said...

Streetcar will be obsolete before study is finished and the puppet masters will be found out. Get ready for backlash like the airport fix. I expected a better story from Tom Gerand than he gave with his interview with the Star, I don't think he knows what is coming.

agentzero said...

Sly has been breaking trust with the public and ignoring the public vote will only deepen their distrust

agentzero said...

Question, what happens when Main Metro combines with grandmothers from Iowa if there is a Plaza route, Sly should describe how that scenario works out because it won't be quite like their fairy tale

DramavilleKC said...

I work Downtown for a very large employer. I literally know no one in my building that lives Downtown or that wants too.

The stories I could tell about the stuff I have seen in the past 3 years working down here.

No, I am not going to change employers. Paid too well with excellent benefits. The only complaint is that it is Downtown where I have to pay my "welfare" payment to KCMO since they can't pay for their own trash, police, or fire services.

Yes, KCMO is South Detroit. It doesn't Madame Cleo to see a BK in their future.

I literally speed out as soon as I can and do not look back.

Anonymous said...

what is the opposite of a mandate?

seems the streetcar has been repudiated by the people.

how could the expansion be pursued now when a broad group of the population has said no?

agentzero said...

Can you say S P E C I A L I N T E R E S T
Money behind the scenes who bought land along the corridor and who call Sly's plays

agentzero said...

The opposite of mandate is masterbate

Anonymous said...

agent zero is my hero.

He rightfully calls BS on this streetcar nonsense.